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| Brigitte Berman’s Oscar-winning documentary Artie Shaw: Time Is All You've Got has compelling and intimate on-camera interviews with Artie Shaw, Mel Tormé, Helen Forrest, Polly Haynes, Buddy Rich, Lee Castle, Mack Pierce, Frederic Morton, John Wexley, John Best, and the very forthcoming Evelyn Keyes on her marriage to Artie Shaw. Photo: Anne Katrin Titze |
In the first instalment with Brigitte Berman on her Oscar-winning documentary Artie Shaw: Time Is All You've Got (4K restoration and remastered sound), now screening at Film Forum in New York, we discuss how a Bix Beiderbecke interview with Artie Shaw in 1979 for her film Bix: 'Ain't None Of Them Play Like Him Yet' turned into an opportunity of a lifetime; Artie Shaw’s theme song Nightmare; the provocative titles of his books (The Trouble With Cinderella and I Love You, I Hate You, Drop Dead); his recordings of Frenesi and Cole Porter’s Begin the Beguine; George Gershwin’s Summertime with Roy Eldridge; obsessively buying Patek Philippe watches; Alexander Payne’s work with actors, especially Dominic Sessa for The Holdovers and Alexander’s thoughtful remembrance of Brigitte’s late husband Victor Solnicki at an Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences’ breakfast in Toronto.
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| Brigitte Berman interviewing Artie Shaw in 1979 for Bix: 'Ain't None Of Them Play Like Him Yet’: “He was very surprised that someone was even making a film about Bix Beiderbecke, a woman on top of it.” Photo: courtesy of Brigitte Berman |
From Toronto, Brigitte Berman joined me on Zoom for an in-depth conversation on Artie Shaw: Time Is All You've Got.
Anne-Katrin Titze: Hi, Brigitte!
Brigitte Berman: Nice to see you again!
AKT: About two years ago, when we talked about your Bix Beiderbecke film, you were telling me about how the Artie Shaw film came to be out of that. How did you get in touch with Shaw in the first place? It is mentioned that he wanted to write a novel based on Bix as the main character.
BB: Yes, that’s what he wanted to do. He never did that. There were a lot of novels he wanted to write. He wrote two books, The Trouble with Cinderella, which is kind of an autobiography, a big long essay-type book. Then he wrote a book of three short stories with the wonderful title I Love You, I Hate You, Drop Dead.
AKT: That is so fitting for this man. Your film is a fascinating portrait of someone who is terribly haunted and driven. A very unusual person emerges in what you got from him. How did he say yes to you to be interviewed for the Bix film?
BB: I called him. You know, I found his name in the phone book, believe it or not. He lived in Newbury Park, I think somebody told me that’s where he lived and I looked it up in the phone book. He answered the phone and I told him who I was and I think he was quite flattered. He was very surprised that someone was even making a film about Bix Beiderbecke, a woman on top of it. He gave me his address, never thinking I’d really come down.
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| Brigitte Berman on Artie Shaw’s recordings of Cole Porter’s Begin the Beguine and Frenesi: “These are unforgettable tunes.” Photo: courtesy of Brigitte Berman |
Then I told him I’m coming with my crew on such and such a date and time, is that convenient? I arrived, there he was, and we did the interview. It took three film reels, I think they were about 18 minutes each. It was fascinating, an amazing interview. He wanted to speak about Bix and then he talked about everything else. The Dorsey brothers and also a little bit about himself. Many months later I thought this would make a really good film.
AKT: And it did!
BB: Exactly. And he agreed to that as well.
AKT: His theme song was called Nightmare!
BB: I know! And I deliberately at the end when he throws a kiss to the crowd, I put this song! It’s like the sound comes out of his mouth. Because for me that’s the real ending, the nightmare coming out.
AKT: It was already the nightmare coming out at the end of filming?
BB: Not yet. I just knew that he was a difficult person. So his theme song was very fitting as to who he was. I’m glad you picked up on that. Thank you! And it’s a fabulous theme song, isn’t it?
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| Roy Eldridge on trumpet with Artie Shaw and his orchestra Photo: courtesy of Brigitte Berman |
AKT: It is. And his recording of Cole Porter’s Begin the Beguine to this day is so beloved. Or Frenesi that he brought back from Mexico,
BB: These are unforgettable tunes.
AKT: It’s not for nothing that he had all these wives and that in the beginning they all fell for him and then the nightmare came.
BB: Yes!
AKT: I am usually good at recognising faces, but Artie Shaw seems like a different person in different parts of his life. I didn’t recognise the same man in the archival footage and the interviews. He has a totally different aura.
BB: You are right! Yes he does. That is very interesting, isn’t it? Good observation on your part, truly!
AKT: In his life, he put obstacles in his way constantly. Pushing himself!
BB: Constantly! And in some ways he was his own worst enemy. It’s kind of sad that somebody so incredibly gifted is like that. In some ways it all came too easy to him. It’s like somebody threw a mantle over him and there he was. I mean he worked hard for two years, but then it just came, the glory and the accolades and he rode on them and got sick of them. So it all became a nightmare for him.
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| Brigitte Berman on Alexander Payne: “I really like him as a filmmaker.” Photo: Anne Katrin Titze |
AKT: When he talks about buying a Patek Philippe watch every week because he had so much money and wanted something to hold for it! His disillusionment with showbiz is so clear. You capture all of that in this documentary.
BB: Thank you. It’s interesting, when I showed the film at some screenings and festivals, after it was at Filmex, people would come out of the theater either loving him or hating him. It depends on the kind of person that they were. I had never experienced that kind of difference, like love and hate both out of the same movie - which I found interesting and was happy about, because I’ve done my job.
AKT: You can’t be neutral with him. I loved that you show him listening to his own recordings.
BB: I found it interesting how he listens as intensely as he does everything else. It goes all on in his head as he is listening. He betrays himself. In some ways that’s when I find him the most charming.
AKT: That’s when he is most tender.
BB: And both are very different, the blues earlier, and then Summertime later, when he has the little kerfuffle with Roy Eldridge. For a perfectionist to say, I like this, I still like this today, that’s something.
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| Artie Shaw with his clarinet Photo: courtesy of Brigitte Berman |
AKT: He’s self-critical in a very strange way, in what he criticises. On another note, did you see The Holdovers?
BB: Yes, was that not something? I was thrilled by the reference [to Artie Shaw]. I’ve met Alexander Payne a couple of times with his films that he brought to Toronto. We were at an Academy members breakfast in Toronto and he came and he is a really fine filmmaker. I really like him as a filmmaker. He also seems to be a very lovely person. Whether or not he was telling the truth, he said he remembered me and my late husband [Victor Solnicki], which I was very grateful for.
Anybody who remembers Victor is great in my book, because I miss him so. I love the way Alexander Payne is with actors and for this young man [Dominick Sessa] this was his very first acting. He just pulled it all out of him with masterful direction. He’s tops in my book .
AKT: I just spoke with Alexander a few days ago.
BB: Do you agree with what I said?
AKT: I do, and we actually talked about your film as well.
BB: What did you tell him about my film?
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| Artie Shaw: Time Is All You've Got poster |
AKT: About the 4K restoration and how great it is. And he immediately quoted Lana Turner, who supposedly quipped in realisation, “What am I doing under Artie Shaw.” A question about The Trouble with Cinderella, does he compare himself to Cinderella in the novel?
BB: No. In no way at all. I don’t even know why he chose the title. I guess if I were to really think about it, that’s an interesting question. I’m sure he would have had an interesting answer to it. Trouble and Cinderella, the two things together become really interesting when you think about them.
AKT: You wonder if it refers to all the women in his life. It’s the most famous of fairy tales.
BB: I don’t think he read that much into it. Oh, yeah that fairy tale that everyone loves, let me take that, you know what I mean? He can be very quick about things. It’s a catchy title that everyone will find unusual.
AKT: I thought maybe Lower East Side boy, shy, withdrawn and then being the belle of the ball.
BB: I mean, however you interpret it. You have an incredible insight. Knowing him, I think it was the fact that it was a very well-known character, everyone knows of her so let me use that title. But I think you have a good point there.
AKT: Thank you for this! I’ll see you in New York!
BB: Yes! I wish you all the best!
AKT: Happy New Year to you!
BB: Happy New Year to you and may it be healthy and may we have more peace in the world! A little more peace!
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| Bar Six in New York City, where I met Brigitte Berman Photo: Anne Katrin Titze |
AKT: We need it! A lot more peace!
BB: A lot more peace, but let’s start with a little! I look forward to seeing you in New York!
Coming up - Brigitte Berman on her interview with Evelyn Keyes, Mel Tormé’s reaction, how documentaries have changed over time, restoring and preserving the film, men of the 20th century and modes of masculinity, Second Chorus with Fred Astaire, and the great movies in this year’s Oscar race.
Brigitte Berman will participate in Q&As following the screenings of her 4K restoration and remastered sound Artie Shaw: Time Is All You've Got at Film Forum in New York on Sunday, January 7 at 2:50pm and Monday, January 8 at 7:40pm. She will introduce the documentary on Saturday, January 6 at 8:45pm.
